Rugby: The thing about Kamp Staaldraad… #frontrowrugby

Rugby: The thing about Kamp Staaldraad… #frontrowrugby

Front row rugby interviews with rugby Legends with Peter steemit Our Guest on front row rugby today is former springb Captain cor ker cor it’s lovely to have you on thank you very much great to have have a chat to you cor Let’s uh start before your springb career because

There’s something it’s a bit of an anomaly there aren’t too many Bach players who were born in luaka tell me a little bit about that yeah so I was born in Zambia and my my parents um at the age of four decided to send me to to um

To Paul well they actually were looking for schools they were looking they started at gr College in bloom Fain which is a little bit closer to Zambia and made their way down to Cape Town where they applied to Paul boy high and to Paul gym and my grandparents at that

Time on my mother’s side were living in Paul so they decided to send us there and we um PA booy ey answered first so I went to PA booy eye and yeah the rest as they say is history but it was it wasn’t it wasn’t very easy to go to um School

In Paul at the age of four um you know that far away from from I can just imagine okay let’s fast forward then to 1999 when you made your debut for South Africa against Italy and you also Skipper the team on that occasion how special was that for you yeah look I was

I was involved with the team for a while at that stage you know in in those days you didn’t just get a test match you know if you were on the bench was the guy really had to be badly injured for him to come off so in the end um you

Know I’d been involved with the team for quite a while and then I was picked in 1997 you know so and and and then I injured my my knee so I missed out on that and then went on the tour after that the year after that and then

Obviously 99 was opportunity for me to to make my debut and it was in Durban and Gary tman got injured and and Nick Mallet asked Russy Russ if he wanted to be the captain and Russy said no thanks and then he came he came to me and said

Corner do you want to Captain the team and I I just said yes I didn’t even think about it you know so it was a natural progression from all the teams that I’d captained up from there so yeah to Captain your team on a on a debut is

Not the springb team on a debut is is not not an easy thing but often you know you’re mostly thinking about the team and the referee and what you need to do and not focusing on your own game but luckily we won that game by 101 n which

Was a record at the time not a bad first test match as Skipper but then things did kind of go in the opposite direction not for you as a captain but for the spring box cuz just a few test matches later we were beaten quite badly in New

Zealand 28 nil but it was only 60 at halftime what went wrong in the second half of that test you know a lot a lot went wrong beforehand you know things don’t just happen on the field you know there’s a buildup to certain things that happen and you know I’ll never forget it

Was my f it was my debut test match against the All Blacks in in New Zealand and um I played a full 10 minutes of the game where I bust my knee again and um we had we had two very young uh players in our team um KFI and um fusin D fusan

And KFI and and KF to played at FL and so they they’re young nine and 10 and very talented kids but but obviously not the experience and when you play in in New Zealand it’s very difficult and we play them in Dan Eden the house of pain

So it was the house of pain for us that day but you know just the buildup to the game and the pressures that come with playing in New Zealand you know I think as a as a collective as the coach the the players everybody got a bit of stage

Fight and got a bit you know nervous and made mistakes and in the end when you make mistakes against the All Blacks you pay for it you mentioned the injury there against the All Blacks and ultimately missing out on the 1999 Rugby World Cup I’m Keen to hear from you

Given that Nick Mallet spoke to you about or offered you the captaincy ahead of that Italy test match was there any talk of you possibly captaining the team at the World Cup you know in the end um it it was a possibility but the um nobody knew that Nick Mard was gonna um

Not pick the Gary tysman to go to that World Cup you know everybody thought Gary Tyson’s a shooting as the captain um but Bobby skinet was playing really well at the time but you know if if if Gary Tashan wasn’t there you know I would definitely have been in the

Running and in the end they they opted for y um and then y was was in that team that I captained in 2003 so you know it’s it’s you never know what happens but the the timing of the injury was just at a very bad time you were back in

The side in 2000 it’s interesting to me that the latter stages of the Nick Mallet era featured a lot of heavy defeats down under in the tri Nations um why do you think things went wrong you know I think you work with the team for

A long period of time and then a lot of the older PL guys start leaving and that’s what happened with us you know we the the likes of you know I think Gary Pagel um Gary tashman um you know us was getting towards the end of

His career um Andre fenter there were a whole lot of very very good senior experienced players um that were at the end of their career you know and and at a certain point you have you have to make a decision as a coach and say look I’m going to pick some young guys

And uh he picked the young guys and and with that comes a couple of hidings first before you before you get that experience but you got to bed them somewhat you know if you look at 2003 we took um 2002 on the end of your tour we took um bakis

B je de Villas played his first test match scull Burger was in the mix all those guys were young young young kids you know and four years later they won they won a World Cup so it takes four years uh at least to bleed a good sprm

Up player at some point they have to make their debuts right so Nick mad obviously was out after that 2000 TR Nations iname Harry fun I think it’s fair to say that the performances and the results remained mediocre throughout the fun era you obviously played under Harry aswell at Western Province how did

You experience that era we had a very successful era at Western Province but Western Province and stormers and and provincial rugby and um it’s called it uh Super Rugby is very different to International Rugby and and to be successful on in in one of them at the bottom levels doesn’t mean you’re going

To be successful when you go one level up you know so yeah Harry Harry was a businessman who understood uh rugby and who understand stood business principles and he he he wasn’t wrong in putting in sort of business principles interly but sometimes you know sport is different to business and sometimes

Business is different to sport so I think the most important thing is that that as a as a coach you have to be able to get people together and get them to play for each other and and that was I think maybe that was one of Harry’s weak

Points you know that he he just couldn’t get get the team to be a happy team in a happy environment you know so I went from Nick Mallet to Harry and then to Rudolph I’m glad that you mentioned Rudolph there because that was where we

Were going to go next uh his first two tests in charge were against Wales and Bobby skinstad was the captain for those two matches and then you became the captain after that what was the story there you know Bobby uh Bobby and I played together at Western Province and

And you know I got to give him the credit he he said look let’s have a meeting and talk about it uh in 1995 Shapino and Tian St were could have been both in the spring B team and because there was worries about them you know having friction between each other

You know the one was left out of the team so so tition stra went across and won a World Cup for Australia so um Bobby and I decided look we don’t play the same game we don’t um um you know we don’t compete for the same position so

We can if we’re both in the team we can be both be an asset to the team and um and that was a for two young guys to decide that I think that’s quite a a mature decision to make and um we always work very well together so when he when

I was injured he was Captain when when he was injured I was Captain and we that’s how we our whole career basically went you know so I think I was injured at the time when when Bobby captain in those first test match but then later

You know I I came back as Captain at Western Province and then you know um in 2000 in 2000 and 2001 we C won the curry cups um back to back home Home and Away against the Sharks and Rudolph was the shar’s coach so maybe he decided he he

Thought cor is a better Captain absolutely okay cor so after Rudolph st’s June test series as we said Wales Argentina and Samoa at the time uh came the TR Nations uh two defeats down under a defeat against New Zealand in Durban and then there was quite a

Memorable win over the Wes at at Ellis Park um but in spite of those defeats the performances weren’t actually that bad and it was actually quite encouraging as I recall but then end of year tour 2002 and I know you know where where I’m going with this but before we

Get to Twickenham uh the defeats to to France and Scotland uh yeah the performances weren’t necessarily the best but do you think or or how much do you think end of year fatigue played in those yeah no excuses to be honest there’s no end of year fatigue when you

Play for the swim box you you go over there and you go and play as hard as you can and the big thing is that we we took a very inexperienced team across um there were a couple of of the the players who made their debuts on that on

That tour and I think there’s one or two players that actually only played one test match in their whole life and there was on that tour as well so um you know we we we had a very inexperienced group of players I was injured and and Rudolph

Asked me to come come on the tour because we lacked the experience and he needed he needed some experience in the team and and even though I was still relatively young I I I went and I but I I just had an operation on my thumb so I

Went on the tour but to be honest you know we were a bit like a land land to the slaughter in a way because we were very young and inexperienced and and the older guys had been left some of them left out and some of them were injured

So yeah I think Rudolph’s philosophy was that he wanted to bleed some young players it was a year before the World Cup you know not even eight nine months before the World Cup so in a way we knew we were going to get some some hidings um but we didn’t

Expect them to be that big all right speaking of a hiding 533 against England at twicken him I know you discussed it in your autobiography the right man at the wrong time but for the purposes of our viewers what happened that day yeah so we uh I actually talk about it quite

A lot um it takes a couple of years to recover from from from the biggest loss in springbar history luckily um Ian etet now has that monkey on on his back it took me 16 years 16 years um and and I to be honest I think 570 I think is the

Biggest loss now and that’s to New Zealand but our was against England at tkam you know we had we we as I said we had a young team we got fired up Janis laak got a red card within 10 minutes so we played 70 minutes with with 14 men

Against guys who were seven eight months away from being being world champion so we just we just got hiding you know so I in the game I I I made a lot of mistakes um in terms of just like being over aggressive because I was I was so

Disappointed in some of the younger younger guys in the in the group that sort of you could just see the Their Eyes Were big and they they didn’t know what to do and when you don’t know what to do just at least try your best you

Know so I was quite disappointed in that and I thought you know I’m just going to try and take it all try and do it all myself which which can’t work on the Rugby field and um yeah I as I said I made some mistakes which I regretted for

Many years but I’ve apologized I think enough times I think so uh let’s move into 2003 then uh the World Cup year but before the World Cup uh the TR Nations and there was another heavy defeat uh to the All Blacks at lus in Petoria um I

Spoke to Robbie kson actually he was a guest on this show um a couple of episodes ago and he said that he thinks one of the reasons that things went wrong for the box that day was because you guys were staying in Durban and only

Flew up to p the day before would you go along with that no that you you you don’t mess around you don’t stay at at at um sea level and then go to altitude 1,800 odd meters above sea level a day before you know so I think Rudolph was

Also trying things um also in a way relatively inexperienced coach at the time so he was trying things and if it if it if it had worked and we’d beaten the All Blacks everybody would said what a genius you know so you damned if you

Do it damned if you don’t in in South African rugby though corner I know you know what I’m going to ask next uh before the World Cup 2003 uh there was a little thing that took place called Camp stal what happened there the principle was right you know the principle of

Taking players away from their luxury hotels taking them out into the bush uh putting them in a in a sort of military environment where they really struggle and and there’s no cell phones you can’t speak to your mates and it’s it was really hard the principle is right that

If you if you have to rely on each other you become closer and you and you understand each other better you know who who moans the most when when there’s real pressure and and and when you’re under under severe physical strain the only difference was that you

Know they took it a bit far um there were Special Forces involved who um who they they their idea of of of physical um torture is is very different to the general man in the streets physical torture so I think that was that was one

Of the mistakes and I think you know um a couple of months out I think we were two or three months out from a World Cup you know you want to build players up you don’t want to break them down and unfortunately these guys just broke us

Down a lot of stuff went down that that has been spoken about you know we did really silly stuff you know um and as a captain you know I i’ missed one World Cup um and I knew I wasn’t going to make another world cup the way I played

Wasn’t it wasn’t likely I would never have made that 2007 World Cup and even if I did make that World Cup I don’t think um Jake white would have picked me because I was too small and one of the things I learned there as a a lesson for

A leader is like you must never sacrifice your morals and your ethics and what you stand for just to make one thing you know and the one thing I really wanted to go to that World Cup and and I make no stories about it that we were told in no uncertain terms that

If you don’t make the camp you know you probably you won’t you will not go to the World Cup so I stuck it out you know and I and I allowed my players to go through stuff that I probably would never do in in normal circumstances you know so I was

Disappointed in myself afterwards I I I still see some of the guys faces when eggs were broken on their heads and and and the disappointment and the the torture that they went through and I’m like yeah corner you could have been better it wasn’t my proudest moment but

You know if you learn from those things and as a leader you got you got to you got to come out on the other side better it when you make mistakes like that you know so it was it was a big mistake on my side hey if you’re enjoying this

Video why not hit the like button did you all the guys ever lose confidence in Rudolph Stalley as a result I you know I wouldn’t say we lost confidence you know you maybe respect in a in some way you know he like oh you know how how do we

Get go through this you know and maybe you never know you know maybe there’s method in the matters and your got and you you beat England in that pool game as as we we tried to do you know if we had beaten England in the pool game we

Wouldn’t have played New Zealand the quarterfinal which would have me we probably would have gone through the semi-final you know so I I don’t think we had a team to win that World Cup but I certainly believe we could have gone past quarterfinals um but we came up against

The all black team in that quarterfinal that just annihilated us so we were competitive uh against England you know Johnny Wilkinson at his best was was you know we had them rattled for 70 minutes and in the last 10 minutes they scored a

Try and a Dro goal so I you know to be honest sometimes you don’t know what’s going to be good for you so sometimes if you go through like tough stuff you never think you know maybe we could sneak through this and and and maybe it toughens us up

Quite a bit and and we pulled through one game which was actually the England game we always knew that if we beat England we’re not going to play New Zealand so it was always if if we if we lose and become second in our pool we’re

Going to play the All Blacks you know so you never know and and then you got to go through these things it’s probably Tri trial and error but I think the way things are run now it’s very different and there’s lot lot more player input and and yeah I’d say you know again

That’s why I read that because the right right place at the wrong time it’s just you always want to play for the S that’s your dream as a kid you want to be there but then when you get there uh you hope it it’s a bloody good ERA

And and and the era just before me was great under Nick melet I mean the one I think 17 in a row I don’t know how many they equal the world record for the most wins in a row um so I was a part of that in a way but

Not 100% because I got injured I was eight for nine months of that and then yeah the era after me was ja what TR Nations Champions world champions you’ve half answered answer my next question actually I was going to touch on it as you say the book uh the right man at at

The wrong time do you have any regrets yeah I do you know um but you know regrets there’s no there’s nothing positive about the regret you know um I do regret that I didn’t stand up in in com St well I did stand up once um

When we were in a freezing cold water in the middle of winter in the Highfield and I I got the guys out of the water and and then a couple of gunshots went over our head so we we walked back into the water so it wasn’t a it it wasn’t as

If I didn’t stand up but I didn’t stand up enough you know I should have said look guys I’m I’m I’m taking my team and I’m leaving is not is not what has to happen and if you want if you want you can try and pick another team but there

There’s there’s no other 23 around that can be as good as us so maybe I wanted again you know as I said earlier if you want something too much you you sacrifice certain morals and ethics that you you actually stand for and and that’s one of the things

That I learned as a leader you never do that you stand up for what you you believe in and you walk away if you have to walk away and and there’s a massive Financial loss or or I don’t know maybe something like a World Cup that you can

Lose out on then that’s what you do I can’t remember um after that World Cup in 03 did you retire from International Rugby there and then yes I did yeah so we we we obviously fell out in the quarterfinals against New Zealand they were a very good team at the time um and

Then I came back and Rudolph was fired obviously um you worst performance in it we had only played two World Cups um or 99 we got to the semi-finals 95 we won and um and so that’s the worst performance in Spring B history so boom coach is gone and they were talking

About Jack White and and I knew I knew Jack White’s philosophy I would wouldn’t have fit in there so I thought you know what I’m 30 years I’m 29 years old I’ll retire from from International Rugby go overseas for a couple of a two years two years stint because I always thought I

Was going to stop playing at 30 anyway I I put it in my mind that I was going to stop playing at the age of 30 uh just the way I played um because I wasn’t a very big guy too overly aggressive and and just like punch way above my my my

Weight category so yeah so I retired from s m Corner you’ve mentioned Jake white twice now uh and his philosophy and I.E bigger players um I take it you’ve got a quite you have quite a strong opinion on that yeah you know at the time you know hindrik bro was

Probably one of the better open side frankers in the world World um and Jak W just said no he doesn’t need a fetcher he needs somebody to fetch beer from his fridge and he didn’t pick him you know and and it’s a Pity because if if you

Look what’s happening now you know that not a lot of people know this with the overriding rule of rugby well maybe I must take you back the only reason why I know this is because I was injured for nine months and S only had to pay me for

Six months so they said you know what jump on the plane in December all the referees and you go to referees conference in Australia Bondi Beach and I made my way there so this is the only reason why I know this not a lot of people know the overriding rule of rugby

Is the following is that rugby should be a game played by people of all all shapes and sizes which sounds like a very basic thing but it’s a very important thing because if you deile scrum all the fatties will be out all the props will be out if you change

Something in the lineup they’ll took the tall gu out of the lineup so so whenever they look at a rule when they look at changing the rule they always look what effect will they on on the size of people within the team if you look at rugby league it’s not very different to

Our game but they’re all the same size there’s there’s no size variation they’re all pretty much the same size sucky very fast so they’re all pick one one size FS all type of G you know so that’s the amazing thing about rugby with different shapes come different personalities come different ideas and

Um so so yeah so picking small guys now if you look at it now I mean picking small guys is is is a trend because the small guys from day one they learn how to to evade tackles you know so I mean ctly or you can you can name them all

The small guys you know are there you know guaka Smith is a great example Gua Smith’s not a massive Big Bly loose forward but boy can he run and he can make a difference you know so loose forwards scrum offs and wings you know

You know if they don’t have to be big to be good and um I think that’s that’s the lesson that we’ve learned over over many years where we obsessed with with size suddenly now we can pick a guy like cly Aron cor during your era England obviously with the team that emerged as

The world champions the All Blacks were I mean they’re perennially strong the wbes were very good at the time because they would have been the 99 world champions that won the tri Nations 2201 as well out of all of those great players that you came up against who

Would you say was the toughest it’s a very interesting question you know because um when you ask South Africans who’s the toughest guy you ever played against they often talk about a New Zealander or a guy in England that they played against there was stuff but you

Know to be honest I I played it in in the back end of the amateur era and the first year of the professional era which is 1996 you know and and the guys like Audrey KES and elandre the guys from from from the Eastern cap I mean surely

They don’t get harder than that those I mean AR annihilated people he he his fist was as wide as your head and if he hit you he knocked you out you know it was it wasn’t like it wasn’t even a joke and those days you could actually still

Punch guys on the rug field so um by far the the toughest guy I played against was Audrey keles um because just but how dirty he was and how scared I was of him and and then um on if I if I look at stuff in my in my in my position because

I was an open side flank and and and I I I I based my game on on the New Zealand open side because I knew I was too small to compete at any other level if I played open side I could get to the ball quickly I could steal ball I could slow

Ball down Etc so Richie mcco um was was coming through the ranks at at my in my era towards the back end of my era um you know Josh kronfeld when I started playing I played against him he was he was amazing in that 1995 World Cup he he

Was just an incredible player but yeah I based my game around their style of play and how they get to the ball so it really was a case of I I Tred to be an open side flanker even though nobody picked open side flankers in South

Africa and we played with we our open side flanker played with a number six in his back they play with the number seven on their back so we were very different it’s always been an interesting distinction that for me uh you know the the the different numbers on the back South

Africa and New Zealand in terms of the open side flanks cor I think that a lot of this conversation has had a bit of a negative tone you know when we spoke about those defeats at Twickenham Loftus the 03 World Cup kstart and all that so

I’d like us to finish on a high so I’m going to ask you to share with us a memorable funny moment from your time with the spring box she there were there were quite a few you know we when you when you go on tour and you you travel in hotels you travel

Around the world and you stay in stay in these hotels you know there’s always characters within the team and there’s always lots of fun fun to be had but but I think about the the wins on the field and and in in a very specific game one

Of the my my highlights but wasn’t as a as a captain was um or it could have been can’t remember is we beat the All Blacks 4240 or something at Ellis Park Robbie flick scored three tries and um you know you think about th those those those moments where where it’s

Like it could have gone we could have lost 4220 you know but it’s just one of those days where things work for you on on the day your plans work out you you managed to hold on to the ball when when you shooting hold onto the ball and and

You score the tri you know and it was just but but if if I if I look back um which is incredible the human mind is is you forget all the bad stuff you forget all the comp St drought horrible stuff you just remember the good stuff you

Know you remember the the tours and and the jokes and on the bus and the you know yeah just maybe one story I can I can tell you we um we in 1998 I think Nick M wasn’t involved we went on a on a tour those days you played you played Wednesday and

Saturday Wednesday Saturday for four weeks and one of the guys in our team he I I think of his name now we he was in the reserves all the time and you know the reserves at that at that stage as I said earlier you never really got onto the

Field I mean some a guy nearly had to die for you to um for you to get onto the field so um Philip Smith was the guy’s name he’s a flanker big guy and uh a really good funny guy and when you get onto the bus you have a number um not

Your number that you’re playing it’s alphabetical order so when you go on to there 32 odd guys and that they alphab imally you get your number so I was off a number 15 because you know K was in somewhere in the middle under anyway so

They they um on as we got on the bus everybody was on the bus they said guys number so number one to 32 and um this is the third or the fourth week and and Philip Smith had been holding a a a bag you know those

Tackle bags for three or four weeks and he he he’ probably had enough and uh he everybody shouted out their name and he and he just he shouted it out when he’s Africans guy he instead of shouting his name he said suck in and um everybody pissed themselves laughing because he

Was like it wasn’t his number but everybody knew what he was talking about you know he had been holding he’d been battered holding a tackle bag for three weeks and big guys running at you running over you bump you around so he got batted for three weeks so you

Thought no no suck in is is is probably the one that’s a great story uh cor I’m glad that we could end on a High um let me just say again it was lovely to have you on front row rugby uh great to hear those wonderful stories from the old

Days and hopefully we can have you on again yeah thanks for having me it’s always great to chat about ragby and and as I said earlier you know I always said to my kids you know with mass with with um massive privilege come comes massive respons responsibility you know it was

Obviously a massive privilege for me to to to Captain the team but with that comes a lot of responsibility and and sometimes you take that responsibility and you run with it and other times you you you sort of you don’t want that responsibility but it’s always with you

So yeah I as I said luckily I can I can forget the bad things and remember all the good ones thank you so much for watching if you enjoyed that video why not spear tackle the like button you can also subscribe and hit the notification Bell so you don’t miss any content from

Front Row rugby see you next time front row rugby interviews with rugby Legends with Peter steemit

Well-known rugby journalist Peter Stemmet chats to former Springbok captain Corné Krige in the third of our new series in conjunction with Front Row Rugby. They talk about Corne’s career, that fateful day at Twickenham and what really went on at Kamp Staaldraad. Another fascinating look behind the scenes during a tumultuous period in Springbok history.

Watch this fascinating interview with a legend of the game!

You can visit Front Row Rugby here: https://www.youtube.com/@UCsNRM25J3TGEY2hzqDuNwtQ

00:00 Welcome to Front Row Rugby!
00:13 Not many Springboks were born in Zambia!
01:08 You made your Springbok debut being captain as well!
02:37 Talk about the 28-0 loss against the All Blacks not much later
04:10 Any talk of you captaining the 1999 World Cup Boks?
05:08 Why did things go wrong for Nick Mallett?
06:37 Why did the Harry Viljoen experiment not work?
08:07 Why did you replace Bobby Skinstad as captain?
09:49 The 2002 season didn’t start off badly!
10:22 How much of a role did end-of-year fatigue play?
11:57 What happened on that day at Twickenham?
13:30 The loss against the All Blacks in 2003
14:33 What can you tell us about Kamp Staaldraad?
17:35 Did the players ever lose faith in Rudolf Straueli?
19:08 Things are run very differently now!
19:56 Do you have any regrets looking back?
21:18 When did you retire from international rugby?
22:41 What is your opinion about Jake White’s Springbok philosophy?
25:11 Who was the toughest opponent you ever played against?
27:30 Please share a memorable moment from your time with the Boks
29:26 A funny moment from 1998
31:33 Thank you for taking the time to chat to us!

Rugby: The thing about Kamp Staaldraad… #frontrowrugby