People who saying J-Dill shouldnt brought up racism is silly. FIRST, lets look at why it matters because it is one of the aspects that made Jack Johnson GREAT. Whereas Langford accepted whites drawing the color line on him, Johnson did NOT. Let's be real, If langford had GUTS he could've been the one to go after Tommy Burns FIRST (which led Johnson's path onto the title), but Burns made note that he would never fight langford, and langford ACCEPTED it. Johnson did NOT, whereever Burns went, Johnson went; his dilliengce was SO persistent that it forced the white public to pressure Burns into fighting a Jack. He used this SAME strategy to get Jeffries to do the SAME thing. He used a classic sales strategy in which he made it seem like it was these white boxer's OWN decision to fight Johnson when it was what Johnson wanted ALL along! Langford being a part of the racist Jeffries camp was an example of how he went through the boxing industry – sidelining and NOT taking any risks. He didn't take ANY risks but withheld jealousy over Johnson because HE DID. Johnson cracked the color line barrier and earned what he was after, period. If THERE was NO color line (white boxers who only wanted the title to WHITE boxers) then Langford wouldn't haven't been fighting the SAME boxers 10+ times. He would've had more options.
Andrew knew his statistics, however he was TOO robotic and placed his foot into his mouth too many times. Not only j-dill knew the stats of Johnson, he ALSO knew what made jack johnson great which ties into the SOCIAL influence johnson had. Andrew admitted that he didnt have the social impact johnson had, and WHY Langford didnt? Because he did NOT take those risk to break the color line. People do not make a place in history sitting on the sidelines.
JDil definitely won because he told a better story on how the reasons why langford and other blackfighters never got a shot of the title. but jack johnson never let that limit him to achieve something to break enemy lines and to me as a man i can only respect that for legacy. its not just what you do inside but also what you do out there, that and the reason for langford was always in his shadow
Wow. That was impressive. I didnt expect much in this debate but these two really represented their sides extremely well. I was quite impressed. Especially with Sam Langfords history and legacy. No losers here at all. Very hard to pick a winner coz, Langford loses to Johnson but legacy wise they were both very well represented by their debators. I shall choose anyhow. Good stuff tho boys
78SPORTSTV Good debate between Jack Johnson vs. Sam Langford in the legacy category. I agree with J-Dill's reasons why Johnson had the greater legacy than Langford. However, J-Dill made 3 mistakes on the information in the debate which Andrew Senior failed to correct him. First, the Young Peter Jackson that fought Sam Langford was not the same Jackson whom John L. Sullivan refused to defend his world heavyweight title. The original Peter Jackson whom Sullivan ducked for political reason died in 1901 from tuberculosis a year before Sam Langford turned pro. J-Dill have the Peter Jacksons mixed up. Second, Marvin Hart won the vacant Jeffries' World Heavyweight Title by beating former World Light Heavyweight Champion Jack Root by knockout and in Hart's first defense he lost his world heavyweight title to Tommy Burns who lost to Jack Johnson in 2 years. Yes, Hart beat Jack Johnson before Hart won the vacant title, but some people felt Johnson was robbed after out-boxing Hart in a tough fight. Third, Harry Greb was not the uncrowned champion that J-Dill claimed, but Greb was the World Middleweight Title by winning the title from Johnny Wilson in 1923 and held that title until he lost it to Tiger Flowers in 1926. For winning the World Middleweight Title meant something to Harry Greb for his legacy wise and J-Dill did not research enough on the three mistakes that he made in this video.
Fuck kind of video is this? Jack Johnson obviously, first black heavyweight champion and Jack beat him every time they fought. Respect to my Canadian legend and Sam. But this British is a god damn nut. Go watch soccer.
Johnson wins the legacy argument, where Langford wins the resume argument. It would be neck and neck without the deciding factor; which was the fight they had in 1906 which Johnson was the clear winner.
In short; would you put Frazier over Foreman, or Holyfield over Lewis?
"In his first 14 months he beat joe gans"….. on some real boxing shit that almost ends the argument truthfully lol.. but i do agree that as a PRIZE fighter johnson is greater but as a person who put on two gloves and stepped into that ring langford THAT dude.
The history book say Johnson was champ from 1908-1915. However, I consider the Colored Championship on par with the Heavyweight belt. Therefore, I see Johnson as champion from 1903 when he won the Colored Championship from Ed Martin to 1915 when he lost to Jess Willard.
Fighters like Greb that didn't care what color or weight a champion or contender was and was white too make him a marvel alongside Langford ,Jackson and Wills amongst other almost forgotten fighters of their day.Mayweather's habit of dismissing all time greats like Robinson ,Leonard and Armstrong really pisses me off and he should be called up on it by more people than just Mike Tyson too.It's like Noel Gallagher talking about and dismissing the Beatles ,it really is that low and out of order.
All the no contests and draws against Langford was white men doing their own a favour in my opinion and very suspect but they couldn't try that shit with Johnson as he ground them down with superior ;Ring craft ,size as well as defensive (wearing down a man)abilities for sure in my eyes.
Look at the time Johnson wanted money and famous. So ,took establishment Langford settle. Langford lost 2 Johnson plus Johnson reign for 5years as Heavyweight champion. Both great n I never heard of Langford. They milking them for millions Johnson legacy is greater than Langford and he sided with Johnson adversaries. Jdill won Johnson is legendary and Langford legacy is questionable. Langford was like damage good and was still fighting. Jack Johnson a black hero why is Sam Langford forgotten wasn't no champion.
Jack Johnson had far too much skill for Sam Langford , who was a grappler / puncher . Johnson had a longer reach and used it to good effect and could knock out opponents as easily . Johnson towered over 5ft 7in Langford , who was a pumped up middle weight in my view . Had they fought for a World title , I would have bet all my money on a Jack Johnson victory . Johnson had too much savvy and ring craft for Langford . A good big one will more often than not beat a good little one . In my opinion he knocks Langford out if the World title is at stake . To me , Johnson is the classier boxer every day of the week .
Langford got support from white fight fans who were looking for a white hope to dethrone Johnson. Nat Fleischer ranked Johnson #1 in his All Time Rankings if heavyweights. Langford ranked #5 if I remembered correctly. With his credentials at 5'7 and maybe 160 pounds, Langford should win any pound for pound argument over Sugar Ray Robinson or anybody else! Robinson is only rated 5th among middleweights by Fleischer. Stanley Ketchel, the Michigan assasin who knocked down Johnson is #1. Harry Greb, who handed Gene Tunney the only loss of his career, is #3.
I listened to this debate several months ago and I've been meaning to come back to hear it again what a fantastic celebration of two legends. I appreciate that both were able to cede points when appropriate. It makes for a more positive listen, cheers.
Great debate…… Well done to both parties, the quickest 55 minutes of my life so big respect.
What Jack Johnson did was beyond boxing, he made history and he was the right man to do this.
However, if you are looking at this from a purely sporting point of view without the times and hardships then Langfords achievements are mind boggling. I think he would be a 9 weight world champion by today's standards……its crazy, at 5ft6 and 160 pound, of course he was the superior fighter.
For me J-DILL wins a very close debate because Jack Johnsons history in boxing is more than just his resume.
One of the most compelling debates on the first black boxers ever heard.
As far as who I thiught won the debate. First and foremost they both are very well knowledgeable and proficient of the sport and the boxers of that time. Kudos to both of them.
I believe that Jay Dee brought the some more solid points at the end that gave him the win.
All in All I enjoy every minute of it. Great job!.
36 Comments
jdil won
People who saying J-Dill shouldnt brought up racism is silly. FIRST, lets look at why it matters because it is one of the aspects that made Jack Johnson GREAT. Whereas Langford accepted whites drawing the color line on him, Johnson did NOT. Let's be real, If langford had GUTS he could've been the one to go after Tommy Burns FIRST (which led Johnson's path onto the title), but Burns made note that he would never fight langford, and langford ACCEPTED it. Johnson did NOT, whereever Burns went, Johnson went; his dilliengce was SO persistent that it forced the white public to pressure Burns into fighting a Jack. He used this SAME strategy to get Jeffries to do the SAME thing. He used a classic sales strategy in which he made it seem like it was these white boxer's OWN decision to fight Johnson when it was what Johnson wanted ALL along! Langford being a part of the racist Jeffries camp was an example of how he went through the boxing industry – sidelining and NOT taking any risks. He didn't take ANY risks but withheld jealousy over Johnson because HE DID. Johnson cracked the color line barrier and earned what he was after, period. If THERE was NO color line (white boxers who only wanted the title to WHITE boxers) then Langford wouldn't haven't been fighting the SAME boxers 10+ times. He would've had more options.
Andrew knew his statistics, however he was TOO robotic and placed his foot into his mouth too many times. Not only j-dill knew the stats of Johnson, he ALSO knew what made jack johnson great which ties into the SOCIAL influence johnson had. Andrew admitted that he didnt have the social impact johnson had, and WHY Langford didnt? Because he did NOT take those risk to break the color line. People do not make a place in history sitting on the sidelines.
JDil definitely won because he told a better story on how the reasons why langford and other blackfighters never got a shot of the title. but jack johnson never let that limit him to achieve something to break enemy lines
and to me as a man i can only respect that for legacy. its not just what you do inside but also what you do out there, that and the reason for langford was always in his shadow
The Comment Section has J-Dil for the close win
Wow. That was impressive. I didnt expect much in this debate but these two really represented their sides extremely well. I was quite impressed. Especially with Sam Langfords history and legacy.
No losers here at all. Very hard to pick a winner coz, Langford loses to Johnson but legacy wise they were both very well represented by their debators. I shall choose anyhow. Good stuff tho boys
78SPORTSTV Good debate between Jack Johnson vs. Sam Langford in the legacy category. I agree with J-Dill's reasons why Johnson had the greater legacy than Langford. However, J-Dill made 3 mistakes on the information in the debate which Andrew Senior failed to correct him. First, the Young Peter Jackson that fought Sam Langford was not the same Jackson whom John L. Sullivan refused to defend his world heavyweight title. The original Peter Jackson whom Sullivan ducked for political reason died in 1901 from tuberculosis a year before Sam Langford turned pro. J-Dill have the Peter Jacksons mixed up. Second, Marvin Hart won the vacant Jeffries' World Heavyweight Title by beating former World Light Heavyweight Champion Jack Root by knockout and in Hart's first defense he lost his world heavyweight title to Tommy Burns who lost to Jack Johnson in 2 years. Yes, Hart beat Jack Johnson before Hart won the vacant title, but some people felt Johnson was robbed after out-boxing Hart in a tough fight. Third, Harry Greb was not the uncrowned champion that J-Dill claimed, but Greb was the World Middleweight Title by winning the title from Johnny Wilson in 1923 and held that title until he lost it to Tiger Flowers in 1926. For winning the World Middleweight Title meant something to Harry Greb for his legacy wise and J-Dill did not research enough on the three mistakes that he made in this video.
J Dill got this one..
jack johnson is one of my favorite fighters and for me, he is one of the best ever.
Fuck kind of video is this? Jack Johnson obviously, first black heavyweight champion and Jack beat him every time they fought. Respect to my Canadian legend and Sam. But this British is a god damn nut. Go watch soccer.
Johnson wanted nothing to do with Langford and avoided him like the plague.I guess Johnson drew the color line when it came to Langford.
It makes me happy knowing these kind of debates are still going on. Mad respect to both sides for the passion they put into boxing history.
Johnson wins the legacy argument, where Langford wins the resume argument. It would be neck and neck without the deciding factor; which was the fight they had in 1906 which Johnson was the clear winner.
In short; would you put Frazier over Foreman, or Holyfield over Lewis?
"In his first 14 months he beat joe gans"….. on some real boxing shit that almost ends the argument truthfully lol.. but i do agree that as a PRIZE fighter johnson is greater but as a person who put on two gloves and stepped into that ring langford THAT dude.
The history book say Johnson was champ from 1908-1915. However, I consider the Colored Championship on par with the Heavyweight belt. Therefore, I see Johnson as champion from 1903 when he won the Colored Championship from Ed Martin to 1915 when he lost to Jess Willard.
both are great boxers
in 1904 they fought in chelsea ma. right near me
too bad i was not there to see them
Fighters like Greb that didn't care what color or weight a champion or contender was and was white too make him a marvel alongside Langford ,Jackson and Wills amongst other almost forgotten fighters of their day.Mayweather's habit of dismissing all time greats like Robinson ,Leonard and Armstrong really pisses me off and he should be called up on it by more people than just Mike Tyson too.It's like Noel Gallagher talking about and dismissing the Beatles ,it really is that low and out of order.
All the no contests and draws against Langford was white men doing their own a favour in my opinion and very suspect but they couldn't try that shit with Johnson as he ground them down with superior ;Ring craft ,size as well as defensive (wearing down a man)abilities for sure in my eyes.
Langford would of killed Johnson and Johnson knew it, harry Greb and Sam Langford were the two greatest P4P fighter's of all time
Look at the time Johnson wanted money and famous. So ,took establishment Langford settle. Langford lost 2 Johnson plus Johnson reign for 5years as Heavyweight champion. Both great n I never heard of Langford. They milking them for millions Johnson legacy is greater than Langford and he sided with Johnson adversaries. Jdill won Johnson is legendary and Langford legacy is questionable. Langford was like damage good and was still fighting. Jack Johnson a black hero why is Sam Langford forgotten wasn't no champion.
Jack Johnson had far too much skill for Sam Langford , who was a grappler / puncher . Johnson had a longer reach and used it to good effect and could knock out opponents as easily . Johnson towered over 5ft 7in Langford , who was a pumped up middle weight in my view . Had they fought for a World title , I would have bet all my money on a Jack Johnson victory . Johnson had too much savvy and ring craft for Langford . A good big one will more often than not beat a good little one . In my opinion he knocks Langford out if the World title is at stake . To me , Johnson is the classier boxer every day of the week .
Langford got support from white fight fans who were looking for a white hope to dethrone Johnson. Nat Fleischer ranked Johnson #1 in his All Time Rankings if heavyweights. Langford ranked #5 if I remembered correctly. With his credentials at 5'7 and maybe 160 pounds, Langford should win any pound for pound argument over Sugar Ray Robinson or anybody else! Robinson is only rated 5th among middleweights by Fleischer. Stanley Ketchel, the Michigan assasin who knocked down Johnson is #1. Harry Greb, who handed Gene Tunney the only loss of his career, is #3.
Sam Langford was a beast…A 160 pounder fighting heavyweight!!!
gene fucking tunney would box rings around harry wills
johnsion was beating nothing but middleweights and welterwieghts smh!
Langford won the debate
Jack Johnson never faught a black fighter when he won the title. JS
I listened to this debate several months ago and I've been meaning to come back to hear it again what a fantastic celebration of two legends. I appreciate that both were able to cede points when appropriate. It makes for a more positive listen, cheers.
Great debate…… Well done to both parties, the quickest 55 minutes of my life so big respect.
What Jack Johnson did was beyond boxing, he made history and he was the right man to do this.
However, if you are looking at this from a purely sporting point of view without the times and hardships then Langfords achievements are mind boggling. I think he would be a 9 weight world champion by today's standards……its crazy, at 5ft6 and 160 pound, of course he was the superior fighter.
For me J-DILL wins a very close debate because Jack Johnsons history in boxing is more than just his resume.
That guy arguing for Johnson has a mouth like a cats arse!
Still Controversial after over 100 years!
Sam Langford is an incredible human being in all aspects of life what I truly inspirational oh my Lord God given talent
I'm not sure if Mike Tyson even acknowledged I might be wrong
One of the most compelling debates on the first black boxers ever heard.
As far as who I thiught won the debate. First and foremost they both are very well knowledgeable and proficient of the sport and the boxers of that time. Kudos to both of them.
I believe that Jay Dee brought the some more solid points at the end that gave him the win.
All in All I enjoy every minute of it. Great job!.
Ok cool
Langford like a smaller version of tyson.. so much holding in Johnson's fights.. could never do that with Langford.